The following is an excerpt from the book Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas. This bit of the interview has been retold on the internet ad nauseum, but I thought it would be good to pass along to the few that may not have read it before. Bono may be a heretic to some, but I would be in agreement with those that say he is a sinner (just like me) who is extremely grateful that we can rely on Grace in Christ instead of Karma. Good news, indeed.
Bono:
My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person
of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What
it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes
itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable
situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get
too complicated. I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is.
God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in
allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that
love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is
when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
Assayas:
What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and
love"?
Bono:
There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint
a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it
is. I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car
chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass
murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward.
Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it,
those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is
that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern
father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and
some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one
relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of
worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the
other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal.
The combination is what makes the Cross.
Assayas:
Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and
Central America last time. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the
gospel in one hand and a rifle in the other.
Bono:
I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what
happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. [laughs] A
list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where
once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they
were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why
are you chuckling?
Assayas:
I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met
him.
Bono:
Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has
its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The
physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people,
heads bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows
Assayas:
So you won't be critical.
Bono:
No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But
when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS
orphans in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or
Father Jack Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I
meet priests and nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up
much easier lives to do so, I surrender a little easier.
Assayas:
But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?
Bono:
[W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an
important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor
countries spending so much of their national income paying back old
loans to rich countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard
against his Parkinson's. It was clearly an act of will for him to be
there. I was oddly moved by his humility, and then by the incredible
speech he made, even if it was in whispers. During the preamble, he
seemed to be staring at me. I wondered. Was it the fact that I was
wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in case I was causing
some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still staring at
them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to him as
a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.
Assayas:
Didn't he put them on?
Bono:
Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could
ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely
intact. Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the
Debt campaign will have the Pope in my glasses on the front page of
every newspaper."
Assayas:
I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.
Bono:
Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of
humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.
Later
in the conversation:
Assayas:
I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started
acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono:
Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God
who created the universe might be looking for company, a real
relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is
the difference between Grace and Karma.
Assayas:
I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono:
I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of
Grace.
Assayas:
Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono:
You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You
know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth
for a tooth, or in physics; in physical laws every action is met by
an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the
very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along
comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so
you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love
interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in
my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid
stuff.
Assayas:
I'd be interested to hear that.
Bono:
That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was
going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse
my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that
Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I
hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity.
Assayas:
The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could
believe in that.
Bono:
But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God
says: Look,
you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to
selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful
nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are
you? There are consequences to actions. The
point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the
world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our
sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point. It
should keep us humbled . It's not our own good works that get us
through the gates of heaven.
Assayas:
That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful,
even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank
among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that
farfetched?
Bono:
No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the
Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously
a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other
great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But
actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that
hook. Christ says: No.
I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying
I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying:
"I am God incarnate." And
people say: No,
no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit
eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey,
we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word!
Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you. And
he goes: No,
no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you
free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At
this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh,
my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So
what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was the
Messiah or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the
level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've
been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb,
and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were
putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK,
martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I'm
not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for
over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned
upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched
Bono later says
it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:
Bono:
If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be
transformed. When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there
is all my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot
of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was,
or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that's the
question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.
"Live for me. I died for
you."
